Immortality
Tuesday, January 10th, 2006Wednesday, December 28, 2005
Immorality,Immortality: Just One Letter Apart or Something More?
6 Comments:
Saturday, December 31, 2005
Do You Really Want the Longevity of Methuselah and Beyond?
by Konstantin Nikolaevich Batiushkov (1787-1855)
Know’st thou what gray Methuselah
Pronounced when parting with this life?
Man’s born a slave,
He dies a slave,
And death will never tell him why
He walked this lovely vale of tears,
Suffered, wept, endured, and disappeared.
And on a more cheerful note:
Methuselah
- Unknown Author
Methuselah ate what he found on his plate,
And never as people do now;
Did he note the account of the calorie count.
He ate it because it was chow.
He wasn’t disturbed as at dinner he sat,
Devouring a stew or a pie
To think it was lacking in granular fat,
Or a couple of vitamins shy;
He cheerfully chewed every species of food,
Unmindful of troubles or fears
Lest his health might be hurt
By some fancy dessert,
And he lived over nine hundred years.
More on longevity including some interesting speculation on biblical longevity from Wikipedia
Lifespan
Our current knowledge on cellular lifespan hypothesizes that the natural limit on modern human longevity is well below 150 years. Guinness Records for the oldest living person have long remained within the range from age 112 to the all-time record of 122 years held by Jeanne Calment, but the process of sorting genuine supercentenarians from longevity myths is hampered by the often questionable birth certification records from the late 19th century. Guinness Record statistics are soon likely to reveal the approximate true longest natural human lifespan yet achieved in modern times.
Today some maintain that the unusually high longevity of Biblical patriarchs is the result of an error in translation: lunar cycles were mistaken for the solar ones, and the actual ages are 12.37 times less. This gives 78 years for Methuselah, which is still an impressive number, bearing in mind the life expectancy of Biblical times. Methuselah’s fathering of Lamech would correspondingly have occurred at solar age 15 (187÷12.37). (This theory however, seems doubtful to others since patriarchs such as Mahalalel (Book of Genesis 5:15) and Enoch (Book of Genesis 5:21) were said to have become fathers after 65 “years.” If the lunar cycle theory were accepted this would translate to an age of about 5 years and 2 months. Creationists have proposed a number of ideas for the dramatic decrease in lifespans following the flood of Noah’s time. One was that conditions before the flood caused much less ultraviolet light from the sun to impact the earth, and that this allowed for longer life spans. The latest proposal is that it is due to the genetic bottleneck that would have been caused by the flood, causing loss of longevity genes.
What would we worry about if we all had the potential to live nine hundred years or forever. I guess it would be not to get killed in an accident, a homicide, a war or a natural disaster (a flood as perhaps Methuselah?). Would we worry that we might get bored with life?: “Not new. Already seen this, done this.†Is this, the longevity of Methuselah or beyond,that which people alive in this world of ours really want? ..Maurice.
3 Comments:
- At Saturday, December 31, 2005 2:53:38 PM, Moof said…
- You know … I believe that if you ask a youth that question, they may not give you the same answer as an elderly person.The elderly person will be more likely to tell you that life is short … the younger person to be so lost in his own callow conception of immortality that he’s not even aware of how brief a time he’s had to come to his conclusions.
Likewise … I believe that the elderly person, by now well aware of his own mortality, would be more likely to tell you that they do not seek immortality … while youth, still thinking of itself as immortal, would be quicker to try to find such an option for that time, so far in their future, when they might need it.
I honestly don’t think that man knows what he wants along those lines … and man certainly can’t see the entire picture from either end of the trail.
You give us a lot of great information, Dr. Bernstein, and you ask a lot of piercing questions … how about sharing a bit of what you believe … ?
- At Saturday, December 31, 2005 4:51:25 PM, Maurice Bernstein, M.D. said…
- That’s it, Moof, I am not sure what I believe. I have the feeling that the world is going to be challenged soon by the development of scientific tools for longevity and I think the world is not prepared for that at all. We can’t even provide nourishment and care for many of the people already alive on this planet. We are disregarding scientific evidence of global warming which may affect how many of us will live in our remaining three score and ten years. Our world is not in peace. Will longvity prevent war and injustice? I think not. What needs to be done is invent a way to eliminate prejudice, eliminate mortal conflicts, eliminate the blindness of many to those in need, provide resources for making a long, long life a good life for those increasing millions and billions of humans who will then populate the earth as longevity becomes a reality. As things stand now, well, getting older to three score and ten and perhaps a few more years seems all that is practical, needed and wanted. ..Maurice.
- At Saturday, December 31, 2005 6:00:09 PM, Moof said…
- “What needs to be done is invent a way to eliminate prejudice, eliminate mortal conflicts, eliminate the blindness of many to those in need […]Dr. Bernstein, what you’re saying here is that we need to eliminate the human race! As long as there are people, prejudice, conflict and self-centeredness will thrive.
Perhaps you can envision some future utopia where mankind has finally become civilized and replaced ego with altruism, but I question if what life remains at that point will truly be human as we understand it.
What makes the true goodness blaze forth from our frail capacity to reach out and put others ahead of ourselves is the very fact that it’s so rare. The “Mother Teresas” are not the human or social norm.
The conditions you ask for will only happen when there are so few men left, that there’s no one left to envy, or resent, or look down on …
However, as can be seen in an ongoing discussion over on Dr. Rangel’s blog regarding Euthanasia ( Rangel on Assisted Suicide and Q&A on Assisted Suicide )- if man is able to open “Pandora’s Box,” he will do so.
I agree with you that “getting older to three score and ten and perhaps a few more years seems all that is practical, needed and wanted” … completely! I just don’t see the idea of immortality or a greatly increased life span as something to be set aside until we’ve … evolved? … because it’s not going to be allowed to happen that way.
Due to scientific advancements, it will happen far too soon, because we are not wise enough to leave it alone until we’re ready to tackle the problem in all of its aspects.
In fact, it could even be argued that we won’t be ready until we are actually able to set it aside, and walk away from the box, leaving its mysteries unexplored.
Sunday, January 08, 2006
More on Immortality
Joyce Kilmer has humanized trees in this well known poem “Treesâ€I think that I shall never see
A poem lovely as a tree,
A tree whose hungry mouth is prest
Against the earth’s sweet flowing breast;
A tree that looks at God aft day,
And lifts her leafy arms to pray;
A tree that may in Summer wear
A nest of robins in her hair;
Upon whose bosom snow has lain;
Who intimately lives with rain.
Poems are made by fools like me,
But only God can make a tree. As I was hiking today through Towsley Canyon in Southern California, I came upon this tree clinging on to the rocky side of a mountain and I wondered if there was a common yearning between man and tree for longevity and/or immortality. Any thoughts? ..Maurice.
2 Comments:
- At Monday, January 09, 2006 6:59:07 PM, Moof said…
- I wondered if there was a common yearning between man and tree for longevity and/or immortality. Any thoughts?My thoughts are: was that a rhetorical question?
Since I’m fairly certain that you’re not anthropomorphizing trees - even with quoting Kilmer’s stirring poem - I have to wonder exactly what you are asking.
In front my ancient house, is one half of a very old hickory tree. When my husband’s father was just a tiny boy, the hickory tree which had been there for generations before had been reduced by time to a dying old stump. From this stump grew flexible, firm shoots, which the children were loathe to ignore. They made fine bows, or whips … or so very many entertaining things. This young fellow’s mother finally “persuaded” him to stop cutting them down for use in his games with his brothers.
Two saplings grew, and as the seasons turned into years, became a very large double trunked tree, which provided shade for the house, and which scattered its hard, unbreakable fruit on the lawn every other year.
The little boy grew along with the tree, and became a strapping young man who fell in love with a beautiful young lady … married, settled down, and had a son of his own. This little son, his namesake, played underneath the tree … picked the nuts to be used in cookies. In time, he also grew into a fine, strong adult.
By now, the hickory tree was so large, that it covered the roof of the house, and had become a shelter from the storm for many tiny creatures.
The young namesake found a woman to love, and the cycle began all over again - all under the same tree.
And now we come full circle, and this latest young man’s children have themselves become adults. One night, during a terrible storm, the 2nd namesake of the first little boy heard the tree come crashing down, shaking the ground in its final agony … and taking with it the dreams and memories of 4 generations.
And then, less than a year ago, the first little boy followed the tree … tired after a long life of bearing fruit for everyone in his shade.
Maurice, trees are no more immortal than little boys - but they’re wiser than little boys. They “rejoice” in what they have, when they have it; they only ask for sunshine and rain … and they hide any thoughts of immortality within the hearts of little saplings which are cut down to be used as a plaything by little boys.
And such is life.
.
- At Monday, January 09, 2006 9:34:17 PM, Maurice Bernstein, M.D. said…
- Moof, a lovely story. I guess a tree such as you described lives on in memory, such as in your own memory and with your words pass its life on to others who have never seen the tree. And I guess that’s how many of us will live on after we are gone, in memory and words to others. ..Maurice.
.
With mankind’s track record so far, I don’t think we’re ready for that sort of challenge …
Imagine what Aldous Huxley could have written if he’d had a tiny glimpse of tomorrow!
I know of someone who has been talking along these lines for a long time. We’ve discussed some of the ways we see to make this work for everyone. He seems to think it can be done - while I’m not so sure.
Furthermore, I also don’t believe it should be done - but then again, if it can be accomplished, someone will do it. When that happens, I think that mankind with find himself caught in a nightmare inter spem et metum.
Who will benefit? Who will not? Why? Who will choose? Why?
I think we’ll find more death in immortality than we can imagine. Tomorrow is really a very bad dream … :p
Executive Director, Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies
http://ieet.org
Editor, Journal of Evolution and Technology
http://jetpress.org..Maurice.
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“Aging, Death, and Nanotech” by Mike Treder
Responsible Nanotechnology December 28, 2005
***
“Life extension, human rights, and the rational refinement of
repugnance” by Aubrey de Grey
Journal of Medical Ethics 2005;31:659-663 November 18, 2005
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“Live Long and Prosper: A Program of Technoprogressive Social Democracy”
by Dale Carrico
Amor Mundi July 31, 2005
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“Prospective Age and the Effect of Life Extension” by Jamais Cascio
WorldChanging June 14, 2005
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“Life Extension and Overpopulation” by Ramez Naam
An Excerpt From More Than Human May 31, 2005
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“Should We Fear Death? Epicurean and Modern Arguments” by Russell
Blackford in
The Scientific Conquest of Death: Essays on Infinite
Lifespans (reprinted October 14, 2004)
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“Cover Everyone and Cure Aging: Counterintuitive answers to healthcare
inflation” by J. Hughes
BetterHumans October 14, 2004
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“The Fable of the Dragon-Tyrant” by Nick Bostrom,
Journal of Medical
Ethics, 2005, Vol. 31, No. 5, pp 273-277